At a Roc The Mic Tour on-stage battle last year, Copywrite, who had virtually been silent since the release of his acclaimed debut The High Exhaulted in 2002, ripped through his opposition to gain the notice of manager Bee High, who just happens to be the cousin of Jay-Z. From that meeting, Copywrite’s career has skyrocketed behind the scenes, earning admiration from the likes of Just Blaze, Damon Dash, and even Jigga himself.

Ready to capitalize on his God-given microphone skills, Copywrite is releasing a large-scale mixtape, Cruise Control Vol. 1, featuring production from J-Dilla and Jake One, among others. 27 tracks worth of hip-hop, Cruise Control Vol. 1 is a perfect appetizer for his official sophomore offering, currently being planned and prepped for a 2005 release. This time around, though, he’s showcasing well-rounded songwriting tactics in response to those who criticized him for being merely a one-sided trash talker. On the verge of recognition already realized by both underground and lyrical aficionados, Copywrite’s future clearly does seem to be on cruise control.

HHS: When The High Exhaulted dropped in 2002, your buzz was really picking up, but it seemed like you took a step back away from that for some reason. Why didn’t you try to capitalize on it at that time?

Copywrite: Really, I was working on my second album, and then I won that Roc The Mic battle. That kind of changed the course of what I was doing. I had all the songs written for the second album and all that, ready to put out. I wasn’t sure where I was gonna put it out through. Eastern Conference had some offers for me that we were going over or whatever, but my whole thing was that I wasn’t really happy with how The High Exhaulted was put out. It had no promotion at all. Somebody from High Times had to sneak my little album and share a page with MF Doom and all the stuff he was putting out through High Times, just to show me some love on the promotion side. Once I found out what I was gonna be doing, I decided to put out this new mixtape and the future mixtapes to tide people over until my next full-length.

HHS: How is your current relationship with Eastern Conference?

Copywrite: I’m cool with them. I’m not putting my music out through their label anymore, but I don’t have a problem with them personally.

HHS: Going into the Eastern Conference deal, were you expecting there to be much more promotion than there ended up being?

Copywrite: Yeah, I did. Everybody else on the label had promotion. Whether it was all the releases that they put out, like the High and Mighty shit, or the EC All Stars stuff, or even Cage’s album. Even after my album dropped, Tame One had promotion. I really don’t know what their deal was. I don’t know if they were trying to save money and thought it really wouldn’t help, or they thought their core audience was gonna support regardless of if they saw stickers. Whatever it was, I just wish it would have been as fairly treated as the rest of the projects on the label.

HHS: During that time, there was talk of the Weathermen project, which would have been huge if it ever came to fruition. What happened with that

Copywrite: That project never really had a strong foundation. It was more of an idea. A lot of us thought it was cool, but it wasn’t our main focus. It would have been something cool to put out to cross regions with fans. Like, a lot of Copywrite fans may not be El-P fans, and vice versa. It never really got off the ground, though.

HHS: On “That’s A Wrap,” from Cruise Control Vol. 1, you say, “I’m gonna honest y’all, I think my album could have been hotter, y’all.” Can you explain why you feel that way?

Copywrite: It was very one-sided. At that time, I didn’t give a fuck. I was just trying to show people that I could really spit. I was trying to show wittiness and all that; I wasn’t trying to put together a real solid, well-rounded album. I thought it was good for what it was, you know, for beats and rhymes. I wasn’t doing any concepts or stories then. Believe it or not, concepts and stories are sometimes easier to do than all of the shit talking.

HHS: Is that because you eventually run out of witty punchlines and metaphors?

Copywrite: Yeah, and that’s why I wanted to do that album; to basically show people that I can handle more than a hot 16 bar verse, and I could do whatever I want.

HHS: On Cruise Control Vol. 1, what angles in songwriting are you hitting on that may surprise people?

Copywrite: I got some shit on there that’s definitely showing growth from The High Exhaulted. I got a song on there called “Size 12s,” that’s speaking on the current situations of life and death. There are like three joints on it that will definitely show some topical growth. It’s 27 tracks, and half of that is songs with original beats that aren’t going to pop up anywhere else. All the J-Dilla and Jake One production on there is just for this mixtape. Basically, I’m overcompensating for my time away from the scene.

HHS: As far as J-Dilla and Jake One, how did you hook up with those two?

Copywrite: I’ve been cool with Jake One since after I dropped The High Exhaulted. That dude is crazy, man. He’s really about to blow. I talk to dudes like Just Blaze, and he’s like, “Yo, tell Jake he has my respect.” He’s sick with it. As far as J-Dilla, my manager Bee High is also his manager.

HHS: That brings me to my next question; how crazy is it having somebody like Bee High as your manager now? Not only is he Jay-Z’s cousin, but he also manages Memphis Bleek and other Roc-A-Fella artists. That’s a great look for you, going from an indy look like EC to this heavy Roc-A-Fella connection.

Copywrite: Yeah, it’s real crazy. It’s crazy to where it doesn’t hit me, and everybody around me keeps reminding me how crazy it is. Like, Jay-Z has heard my stuff and he digs it. I went to the Jay-Z and R. Kelly show, and Murda [Bleek's boy] is giving me pounds. I’ve got all people from that camp, like Ty Ty and Just Blaze, giving me real respect. It’s crazy, but at the same time, I realize that they were in this same boat at one time too, where they were getting into the game. They probably had bigger people they were looking up to giving them props.

HHS: There were rumors floating around, but was there any time when you considering signing with Roc-A-Fella?

Copywrite: I was considering it. There were some things passed back and forth from Bee High and Dame [Dash]. Really, I might already know what I’m gonna put it out with, but I want to keep all of my options open. I’d hate to close one deal and then something real nice comes about and I shut it out.

HHS: That’s smart, because, while Roc-A-Fella is a serious look, they have a history of taking real long to put albums out, if they even come out at all.

Copywrite: Any label where there are like 21 artists, you got to wonder when your slot time to drop will be. That’s what the most important thing is. I’d rather be unsigned and be able to put stuff out whenever the fuck I want, then be signed to somebody and be sitting around having to wait like two or three years for an album release. Cuz, then you got to keep jumping in and out of the studio, adding and dropping new songs, and trying to keep the album fresh.

HHS: What is the philosophy behind your own label, Odot Records?

Copywrite: Odot Records is strictly for mixtapes and my crew projects. If another member of Odot wants to put out an album or an EP, they don’t have to go outside of the camp to do so. That’s the only reason why I got that set up.

HHS: Now, on to your next official album. How is that coming along?

Copywrite: I’m looking at a 2005 release for it. I’m definitely gonna be working with Jake One on it. I know I’m gonna be doing some stuff with Just Blaze. I might fuck with J-Zone, and I gotta get one from RJD2. As far as new producers, anybody who has hot stuff, I’m down to work with them, too. I don’t go through beat tapes with a preconceived notion of what I want to hear. I keep my ears open to whatever can take me off guard.

HHS: As far as shit talking and battle raps go, you’re easily one of the game’s craziest, and most slept-on, at it. How often do you battle?

Copywrite: It all depends on how much time I have. I haven’t had time recently to do that too much. The only reason I got into that Roc The Mic battle was because my boys signed me up for it, and there was something at stake that really drove me to give a fuck about it. I’m more prone to battle somebody outside of a grocery store or something like that, rather than go to an open mic. At open mics, you got people there that know your whole shit and every record you’ve put out. They’re gonna come with all pre-written lines about you about your whole history, cuz they’re basically fans trying to turn things against you. They’ve got a lot more to gain than I do, too. If I win, I don’t get anything out of it, but if they do, they can run around and say that they beat Copywrite. I’m more prone to battle somebody outside of like a Best Buy, who really doesn’t know my shit. Then, I’m gonna have fun with it.

HHS: Now, while people like Just Blaze and Jay-Z are giving you respect, what do you think it’s going to take for the average rap fan to acknowledge you?

Copywrite: I think it will either have to be when the next full-length drops, or even right before that album drops. I’m gonna have some tight mixtapes coming out after Cruise Control. I got a mixtape I’m about to do with just Saigon, Sha Stimuli, and myself that’s in the works right now. We’re trying to have that done in like a month. It’s something that Bee High hooked up. So, I’m just trying to bombard the market. I want to get things warmed up before the next official album drops.

Usually granted merely one verse on guest appearances throughout Non Phixon’s catalog, including solo records from Ill Bill and Sabac, as well as Psycho+Logical Records family Necro and Mr. Hyde, the mind of Goretex will finally be given a full platform to exercise with the release of his solo debut, The Art of Dying. Offering a one-of-a-kind journey into realities that too many choose to ignore, The Art of Dying is being met with high levels of anticipation and speculation.

Whatever the verdict may be, though, Goretex is confident that The Art of Dying is an accurate depiction of his thoughts and ideas. How the rest of the world interprets it lies completely within the respective minds of those wise enough to give it a listen.

HHS: When people listen to your verses, they generally say how it’s almost like you bring listeners into your own world with your metaphors and subject matter. Where do you draw inspiration from when you sit down and write?

Goretex: That’s a good question. I think inspiration comes from all kinds of music, from books, from movies, and from reality. Everything that goes down on the regular day-to-day basis. I think every artist, in a sense, wants to create their own world, and their own place where heads can see what’s up. I’m just really exploring a side of my own psyche.

HHS: Every verse of yours is real complex. Does it take you a long time to write a verse, or does the writing mostly just come naturally?

Goretex: I’ll be honest with you, it depends. If I’m in a really fucked up mood, and I feel really shitty about something, it can be a hard time. I think if anybody is stressed out on the regular shit, it’s hard to write a song, or it’s hard to pick up a guitar. If I’m writing to a specific track, once the track is on, it kind of just opens up to me. Usually I get the vibe from the beat, and I’m just trying to get under the beat. It’s like, the minute I hear the beat, I’m already under it.

HHS: Being that this is your first solo album, were there any angles or areas of subject matter that you wanted to touch upon? Like, things you weren’t able to fully cover in the past being that you only typically had one verse on a song?

Goretex: I don’t know. I think all of our solo albums are just different sides of our own personality. What I wanted to say is kind of symbolic to how it has been throughout our career. It kind of depends how you interpret my verses, actually. It’s all up to the listener. I really like to keep the interpretation of my music up to the listeners. If I’m writing about something specifically, it obviously might mean something to me, but for the listener, it’s whatever. It’s more about the intent.

HHS: You mentioned how each of the albums separates you, Ill Bill, and Sabac by your individual personalities. How would you define your personality, shown through The Art of Dying?

Goretex: Someone who says fucked up shit, or maybe someone who just says some other shit. I don’t know. That’s a good question. Again, my perception is different than every other person’s perception. As far as within the group, we all have different personalities. Sabac is wild. When we’re on tour, he parties his balls off. He has a good time, and we all have a good time. We’re out working and trying to make this shit happen. We’re taking these projects one person at a time, and that’s what is taking so long.

HHS: “Celebrity Roast” has been circulating throughout the Internet. What made you come up with the idea of simply bashing a bunch of celebs?

Goretex: I was just basically sitting around, and some people annoyed me. Some people I was inspired by, and some people I wanted to destroy. Basically, it was just for the fun of it. It’s nothing personal. I mean, we all want to eat Jennifer Garner’s ass. [Laughs] The song is pretty nonsensical, though.

HHS: People are coming up with their own interpretations of what the album title, The Art of Dying, means, but I want to know what made you choose that as the album’s title?

Goretex: It’s weird because The Art of Dying can mean a whole bunch of things. I’m not trying to sound vague or superficial, but if it means one thing to me, you may take something different out of it. I look at it on three levels. One, the cover itself is almost like a loss of innocence. I’m not necessarily exploring tangible or everyday things. I’m maybe trying to expound on stuff like supernatural. A lot of weird shit that people don’t really talk about, but they know is this underlying feeling in everybody. I’m the type of person where we don’t do this for fun. I mean, it is fun, but this isn’t a hobby. This is our life and we’ve been doing it for years. Anything we feel we want to put out there, we have to dig it first. Once we’re satisfied, our people hear it and get something special in return.

HHS: See, my interpretation of the title is that living life itself is the art of dying. Like, everyday we get closer to death, so just living is dying.

Goretex: Right, I can totally see that. Yeah, we die a little every day. It can mean the process, of that we don’t really know what the afterlife holds. We all have a lot of suspicions, but I don’t know. I feel like yeah, there is all kinds of crazy shit popping off these days, and supernatural things going on. It is what it is. The whole team is interested in that kind of stuff. I’m not gonna say the occult, but we read a lot of books. None of us really went to college, so we try to educate ourselves. Obviously, the public school system is one percent a none reality anyway. We try to read books, and that’s one thing we all agree upon.

HHS: As soon as news of this album being released was heard, message boards and fans on them were getting really hyped, like, “Goretex is about to come with some real next level shit.” Do you feel any kind of pressure to live up to that, and blow peoples’ minds with your music?

Goretex: Pressure can either put a flame under your ass, or just destroy you. It’s just a matter of, again….I don’t think any artist puts out an album, and when they are done, they are 150% in love with all of it. Basically, the reality is that Non Phixion has been touring so much, like touring in Greece and Iceland and just running around, that basically Necro and I had to sit down and really make time out. We have been planning this album for awhile. How the album came together is we basically sat down and decided to put energy into it. Both of our schedules are hectic. He’s putting out a lot of material this year, and next year as well, so we really had to make time to do this. We’re even about to go back on tour, and there is more stuff coming up. I wish we had a little more time, but it is what it is. All I can do as an artist is that my album isn’t bullshit, cuz I don’t like to hear bullshit. I wouldn’t want to go out and buy a bullshit album. I’m the most critical asshole, and there are very little things out moving me, as far as modern shit. Back to the point, though, I think its dope. I stand behind it, and I put my heart into it. Nothing is perfect, but I fully stand behind it. Also, sonically, I tried to explore a different side as well. Necro produces a vast majority of Non Phixion’s stuff, if not all of it. At the same time, we wanted to come with something that was a little more open. I’m not gonna say experimental, cuz what does that really mean? It doesn’t mean shit. The next album may sound completely different. I look at this album like a time capsule for right now. This is where I’m at at this point.

HHS: I don’t like asking people what their favorite song is on their album, but is there any song on The Art of Dying that you feel most captures where you at while recording the record?

Goretex: Yeah, the song “Earth Rot.” What my album is really is just a document, and a sonic time capsule. “Earth Rot” touched on a bunch of things. It touches on what our future holds for us, which unfortunately is basically gonna be a nuclear war. It covers the process of that and the aftereffects of that, as well as the general and blatant disrespect that people have for Earth. The fact that there is a lot of shit that’s about to pop off. Anybody that’s alive right, from any generations, we bought a ticket and now we’re about to see a bunch of shit pop off. We’re gonna be experiencing it first hand. These are the things that you’ll hear on the album.

HHS: Now, this album cover is causing a lot of speculation, with people trying to dissect it and figure it out. You don’t have to give it away completely, but can you shed some light on the image seen on that cover?

Goretex: I would say that I was probably not in a very good mood when I put that cover together. I probably woke up on the wrong side of the bed. It’s probably something that I ultimately wanted to get out of my system. People were calling us satanic without even really knowing much about us or the music. You hear a lot of stupid things and a lot of bullshit that you can’t believe would be a reality for people to say about you. It’s nonsense. Not to divert your question, though. That album cover, like I said….I came across the image and it obviously is something that is just a pretty fucked up image, no matter how you look at it.

HHS: Is that a picture that you found, or is it something that you physically constructed?

Goretex: Either way, it doesn’t really matter. It is what it is. I can understand people being like, “Wow, what the fuck is that? What is he talking about?” Obviously, it’s a little psychedelic, and I wanted the album to not really look like an album that would come out in 2004. Music products just seem like commercials, and it’s a really awful time in the industry. I just wanted to put out something that maybe 35 years ago, you could have walked into a store, and copped on vinyl for $1.98. Then, you put the vinyl on, and it’s brutal. It’s brutality. That’s all.

HHS: As far as music goes, what are you listening to right now? What could somebody find in Goretex’s stereo?

Goretex: Let’s see. Probably like some James Brown shit, like “Funky Drummer.” Long versions of James Brown’s stuff. Probably Mars Volta, they are pretty fucked up. They sound like old Rush.

HHS: Do you have any rap in the stereo these days, or do you avoid 2004 rap music?

Goretex: Nah, I’m listening to the new Mobb Deep. Actually, that album is kind of inspiring. The last couple of albums they put out were alright. I’m a fan, and what they did on those albums was their business, like label stuff. This new shit, I really feel like they reinvented themselves. I’ve always been a fan of Havoc, but for this one, I really feel like he went back to the lab. They sound hungry again.

HHS: The whole Psycho+Logical family gets a lot of respect and appreciation below the radar, like on a subterranean, underground level. What do you think it will take for you guys to gain a wider level of acceptance?

Goretex: First and foremost, a music video. A video with a good budget, and motherfuckers that will just play it. The funny thing is, if it got played on MTV2 twice a day, that’d be it. I really feel like it would catch on. Tons of people come up to me, and say stuff like, “Hip-hop is cool, but I’m not feeling a lot of today’s shit, and you guys made me listen to hip-hop again. We have a weird cross breed and cross section of fans. There are 35 year-old, 38 year-old African dudes from like Zimbabwe coming to shows wearing Ill Bill shirts. It’s wild. Punks, and all kinds of heads. As far as what it will take, we’re doing this shit independently cuz we already wasted enough time dealing with fucking labels. We’d have to body somebody. That’s just ridiculous, so we just had to chill out.

HHS: You think you’ll stay independent for the rest of your career, or could the major label move happen again in the future?

Goretex: Uncle Howie and Psycho+Logical are always going to exist, regardless. Numbers talk, and who knows if somebody from a major is going to step up with an offer. At this point, though, to be honest with you, fuck that. We’re just gonna do it independently. That major label shit is over.

Coming up as a member of the now defunct underground group Natural Resource, the Brooklyn native parlayed a successful run of below-the-radar guest appearances into an independently issued full-length in 2002, Attack of the Attacking Things, followed by 2003′s The Bootleg of the Bootleg EP. With both releases being critically acclaimed but commercially ignored, Jean strived through her unfortunate obscurity to join The Roots’ drummer ?uestlove’s Okayplayer family, provide standout verses on both Talib Kweli’s and The Roots’ latest albums, and recently drop another highly-respected disc, This Week, on Babygrande Records.

Through all of her trails and tribulations, though, Jean has remained steadfast in her motives, by never conforming to the pressures placed on female MCs, and always letting her super-lyrical skills do the talking. As media outlets now jump on her deserved bandwagon, through placements in popular magazines and long-overdue attention being shown her way, she remains grounded, ready for whatever the unpredictable recording industry might throw her way.

In this candid interview, Jean Grae speaks freely with HipHopSite.com about her life’s current issues.

HHS: This Week has been out for a while now, and you have done a great deal of press for it. How do you feel about how its been received?

Jean Grae: The reception has been incredible. Especially in New York, cuz it’s always nice to have your town be supportive of you. It’s been beautiful. I just found out yesterday actually, and I guess it’s a pre-nomination, like before they narrow it down to the top five, but I got pre-nominated for a Grammy. It’s for “Best Rap Solo Performance.” That’s a little crazy. [Laughs]

HHS: Damn, congratulations on that. Is that for an individual song, or for the whole album?

Jean Grae: It’s for an individual song, “You Don’t Want It.” I’m like the only person without a major deal on the list. We can’t turn our phone back on. I got nominated for a Grammy. So, I guess we’re doing something right.

HHS: Yeah, you’re definitely doing it right. Looking back on This Week, though, are there any parts of the album that you would change, or think you could make better?

Jean Grae: You know what? I always do that, like wonder is I could make stuff better after the fact, but at the end of the story, I always think of albums like they are snapshots of you. For that time. it’s a pretty good snapshot of where my head was at over the past couple of years. There are certain songs that I would have really liked to be in a big studio to work on, cuz I think some songs got lost.

HHS: Any specific songs?

Jean Grae: Well, the whole album. Like, to bring a much bigger sound out of it. Also, it would have been nice if I would have been allowed to be at the mastering.

HHS: You weren’t there for the mastering?

Jean Grae: No, they wouldn’t let me. I fought, but nothing. We had a reference copy, so that aspect of the album I would have changed. That’s pretty much it, cuz as long as people can enjoy it, then its fine.

HHS: I know with independent acts this is always tricky, but have there ever been any plans to shoot a video for the album? That would help get your music out to such a bigger audience.

Jean Grae: We are actually shooting a video real soon, for “You Don’t Want It.” It should be fun. This is my second video, but the first by myself. There is a very interesting concept for it. We had gone through a few treatments, and none of them were seeming to work. I was at the point where I was getting fed up, and I was ready to not even do a video. Then, I was brought the next treatment, and I was like, “Oh shit! They got it!” It’s gonna be interesting. We’re gonna try to break some new ground and do something different. On a budget, of course. [Laughs]

HHS: Are you looking to make that major label jump?

Jean Grae: It’s been interesting. You got to wait and feel out the situations. The Babygrande and Koch situation has been real interesting, though. I’m not gonna hold my tongue about it too much either, cuz it seems like either way, I’ve been fucked. No matter what I say. If I don’t say anything, I did something wrong, and if I do say something, I did something wrong. At this point, I just don’t care anymore.

HHS: We won’t dwell too much on that topic, though, because I’m sure you can’t give us everything right now.

Jean Grae: Thank you. I appreciate that. [Laughs]

HHS: It was very interesting to see you in the recent issue of THE SOURCE, in that spread with fellow female MCs Jacki-O and Remy Martin. How do you feel about how that piece was put together?

Jean Grae: It’s interesting. I had my mom over for dinner the other night, and we had this big conversation, actually, about Michael Jackson. Trust me, this makes sense. [Laughs] It was going back and forth with different people at the table, about whether he should be able to raise children, should he be convicted, and why is he such a freak. It’s interesting, cuz on like a much smaller scale, I know what it’s like to have a conversation with someone, and go through an interview. Pretty much however the medium wants to put it out there, and how they want to portray the situation, they will. You know, editing. You never really know what that person is like. I think THE SOURCE was interesting. It’s always a good look to be anywhere. The only bad press is no press, so I definitely do appreciate it. But, it was a very edited down piece. It was definitely not five questions in the interview.

HHS: So, they didn’t tell you how it would appear in print, like before the interview?

Jean Grae: No. [Laughs] It was quite a long conversation, and you think that you have talked about things that are relevant, and they pick out the irrelevant stuff.

HHS: As far as the pictures, what made you want to hit people with a more elegant look than what people are used to seeing?

Jean Grae: They had told me what the spot was gonna like, and they told everybody to bring some dressy clothes. That’s my kind of dressy look. I’m a girl. [Laughs] I had on slacks and a little business jacket.

HHS: I guess when you are sitting next to Remy and Jacki-O, looking very elegant in their outfits, it gives off that atmosphere for the whole spread. Speaking of them, how was the interaction with them?

Jean Grae: They were cool. Remy is definitely very down to Earth, and real cool people. I had a good time the day of the shoot. It was real interesting. It was sort of that kind of surreal moment.

HHS: Now, I feel, along with many others, that the work you did with 9th Wonder on Jeanius is some of your best work yet. It’s a shame that it had to leak out to the Internet so early. Are there still plans to release it officially?

Jean Grae: It will. We have plans to release it, with a follow-up.

HHS: The Phoenix? I had talked to 9th Wonder recently, and he told me that it is going to be called The Phoenix.

Jean Grae: God damn it! [Laughs] I didn’t know that the news was out on that. We actually decided on that one like half way through doing Jeanius, and a second follow-up, which I hope he didn’t say anything about.

HHS: No, he just mentioned The Phoenix.

Jean Grae: Ok, good. I’m screaming on him today. [Laughs] For those projects, I think we’ll pretty much do what we did for Jeanius. Like, just go in the studio and record it fast, cuz that seemed to work. When I find some time where he is free and I’m free, I’ll take that trip out to North Carolina again.

HHS: Now that your talent is being heard on a larger scale, are you being called on to do features and guest appearances these days?

Jean Grae: No. Nobody calls. [Sigh, then laughs]

HHS: I can’t believe that. Well, is there any one MC that you would love to work with, though?

Jean Grae: I say Ghostface all the time. I’m gonna get my Ghost track. I’m a fan. [Laughs]

HHS: Being that your career is at its highest point right now, what would you say has been the biggest highlight so far?

Jean Grae: I almost met Prince. Ahmir [?uestlove of The Roots], at the mastering of The Tipping Point, had asked me if I wanted to go with him to Prince’s Musicology show at Webster Hall. I was like, “Yes!” [Laughs] Who would say no? Anyway, we went into the Prince VIP section. We were freaking out. It was like Prince, Stevie Wonder, and Patti LaBelle all standing in the same room. Apparently, Ahmir had tried to introduce me, like, “Hey, this is my friend Je-,” and I had ran to the next room, cuz I couldn’t handle it. I came back, and we were sitting there, staring at Prince having a conversation with Stevie Wonder like two feet away from us, which is freaky. I made direct Prince eye contact, and he did the Prince eyes. [Laughs] I just didn’t have the strength to introduce, and possibly say something dumb. I mean, it was Prince! He’s very intimidating. I hope I get the chance again, cuz I’ll be ready. Another thing is I actually got to meet Roxanne Shante, which was incredible. So, I’m having a good time right now.

HHS: Finally, what would you say is the biggest misconception that people may have about Jean Grae?

Jean Grae: That I’m just a very angry person, which is definitely not true. I’ve heard people saying I’m whiny and I complain too much. It’s not like I’ve made whole albums where I’m like, “I hate this. I hate it!” I’m a normal person, and like any normal person, I go through my days of hating things or having a bad day in general. The only thing different about it is that I have a little bit of that public light on it, so everything you do is multiplied by about twenty. I’m pretty much a normal person who just happens to rhyme.

      This Week is upon us, and the potential she has displayed is met with much success. Detailing a common seven-day span in her life, This Week showcases a more complete MC than on her previous efforts. Where as Bootleg of the Bootleg EP was drenched in abrasive and dark moods, This Week covers a wider range of emotions. On “Intro,” Jean announces, “Critically acclaimed and shot down since Attack, and took all of the criticism, loaded it up and shot back,” instantly letting listeners know just how focused she is this time around. This warning of sorts is made forcefully apparent on This Week’s harder offerings. Adam Deitch’s eerie organ arrangement on “Fyre Blazer” inspires Jean to spit angry jewels, while she blesses the hypnotic “A-Alikes” with punishing bars like, “I’ve mastered it, fucked rhyme, killed its father, bastardized it/ masquerade it, I rolled a drive-by and patronized it.” 

     The real gems on This Week don’t come when Jean is firing off her consistently complex metaphors, though. Showing that, among all of her edgier fare, she is still a woman, Jean addresses the issues of relationships and the opposite sex with ease. Letting a potential love interest know that she truly is one of a kind on “Not Like Me,” she conveys a sexual confidence unheard on her past work. 9th Wonder contributes a beautifully executed blend of vocal wails and soulful horn samples for Jean to opine over her man on the undeniable “Supa Luv,” and “Give It Up” achieves a dream-like state as she ponders the mental tug-of-war that typically accompanies romantic feelings. 

      This Week is not a perfect record, however. While Jean’s lyrics remain impressive throughout, a few of the instrumentals do her talents little justice. For reasons unknown, she recruits production team Midi Mafia (of 50 Cent’s “21 Questions” fame) on “You Dont Want It,” but their painfully generic backdrop warrants skipping. The thunderous percussion of “Style Wars” will make heads nod at first, but its repetitiveness becomes evident by the time the hook comes in, while LT. Moe’s piano and staccato-drum combination does little to excite on “The Wall.”

      In the end, though, This Week is a triumph for Ms. Grae. Hearing her solid songwriting abilities on the E-mail themed “P.S.” is proof enough of her capabilities on the microphone. As the 9th Wonder-produced final track, “Don’t Rush Me,” brings the disc to close, there should be little arguments to the claim that Jean Grae is one of the most gifted lyricists in rap music today, male or female. If justice is served, she will become a hip-hop heavyweight in due time, and as specific bars heard on the aforementioned “Don’t Rush Me” hint toward, Jean seems to have that in her sights. “There’s nothing like knowing yourself, like the way I know the smoking has kind of broken my health, like the way I know my flow don’t make appropriate wealth/ I can’t change that, but, funny I’m saying that when its money I’m aimed at.” 

For the ignorant hip-hop listener, hearing Jigga show his praises for fellow Brooklyn native Talib Kweli may have been the first time Kweli’s near-flawless lyrical abilities were made crystal clear. A veteran behind the microphone, Kweli has gone from a buzz-worthy member of Black Star (alongside Mos Def) to becoming one of the most respected MCs in the game today.

With Black Star and his collaborative effort with Hi-Tek, titled Reflection Eternal, hailed by many as classic records, anticipation was extremely high earlier this year for his latest offering, The Beautiful Struggle. Unfortunately, the record suffered a fate similar to Jean Grae’s recent Jeanius project, being leaked to the Internet prematurely. Kweli has healed from those scars nicely, however, and is ready to release the official version of The Beautiful Struggle. Featuring guest shots from Common, Jean Grae, Mary J. Blige, and Anthony Hamilton, the album is a fitting showcase for Kweli’s well-rounded skills.

Rather than approach him with generic questions such as, “What makes this album hot?,” or “What are you bringing to the game in 2004?,” this interview allows Kweli to break down several of The Beautiful Struggle’s more notable selections.

“Going Hard”
Kweli: With this album, I just kind of let the beats decide where I was going for each song. I heard the track from Charlemagne, and the hook came to me first. The beat sounded like some shit you would hear at a club or something. Like a night club that I perform at; not one that DJs would spin at. I wrote the first verse right then, but the second verse I already had.  A lot of people call that second verse “Beef,” because I had performed that on the Dave Chappelle show with Mos Def, and people gave it its own name. That was a verse that I had for this song I had done, but I really didn’t like the beat for it. Corey Smith, my manager, actually came up with the part that Res is singing. That’s her singing the “Dear Father” part.

“Broken Glass”
Kweli: I had been on tour with Pharrell a couple of times, for the Sprite tours. We always talked about working together, in passing. Once the album got leaked and downloaded, I wanted to get some more beats to make new songs, and The Neptunes was the production team that I went to. When I ran into Pharrell in Los Angeles, he said, “I have this beat that is perfect for you.” When people tell me that, it’s usually not the beat I’m looking for. He played me that beat, though, and I said, “Yeah, that beat really would work well on my album.” I originally just wrote a straight-ahead, regular rhyme for that song. We already decided to call the song “Broken Glass,” because the beat sounds like glass breaking, but then Pharrell told me I should write a story to it. So, I wrote a story, and that’s how we got that song.

“Around My Way” featuring John Legend
Kweli: Charlemagne produced that, and originally, his homeboy came up with the hook and was singing on it. At first, I was trying to get Sting on the hook. We actually linked up with Sting, like we went to his peoples. Unfortunately, the people at the label, who were going to get us in touch with Sting, never got him a copy of the track. When we linked up with him, that’s how we got the idea for the song he did with Twista. Originally it was Res and I on that song. But anyway, after all that, I sat down and asked myself, “Who would be good on this chorus?” I have known John Legend for some years, and, you know, he has been fucking with Kanye West lately. I had been doing shows with John recently, and I thought his voice would sound perfect on it. I thought that it might actually be better than Sting’s. No disrespect to Sting, of course, cuz he is a master. For what that song needed, though, I think John brought it to another level. He also played keys on it.

“Ghetto Show” featuring Common and Anthony Hamilton
Kweli: Dave West produced that. I knew I wanted to have Common on this album, and when I heard that beat, I knew that was the one Common should be on. I had already came up with album name, The Beautiful Struggle. So, that was where my head was at, in terms of songs. Dave West and I talked about it. I wanted to have a real soulful, but still ghetto, hook for the song. I had been listening to Anthony Hamilton’s album, and I think it is incredible. I really feel what Anthony has been doing. I wanted to get him on the album, too, and I figured that was the song he could be on. I had a lot of fun with that song.

“Black Girl Pain” featuring Jean Grae
Kweli: Midi Mafia did that beat, and as soon as I heard it, it sounded like Black girl pain to me. It sounded like Black girl pain, but in reverse, like the actual sounds of the track. I wanted to write a song about that. I didn’t know how I could write a song from the pain perspective of a Black girl. So, I decided to write about my daughter, and write about how I would describe her to somebody that doesn’t know her. There is a lot of truth and emotion behind that record. Jean Grae is probably one of my favorite MCs ever, and I felt like if anybody could convey Black girl pain on that track, she could. She talks about some personal things on it, which I thought was interesting. People may not get what she’s talking about. Her family is from South Africa, and she talks about those experiences. On the hook, there is the 8-year-old girl Jamia Simone Nash and her little sister, Olivia. They won on the Apollo a bunch of times. Tiffany Mynon, one of my singers, is on it, and Yummy, this girl who sings for De La Soul, is also on it. Basically, that song is a dedication to Black women everywhere, and the struggles they have to go through.

“Work It Out”
Kweli: My album was basically done, and I was on tour with MF Doom. I had brought an engineer with me, and we had set up some equipment in the back of the bus. I had seen Hi-Tek, and he gave me a beat CD. From it, I had been playing that beat over and over again. One day on the bus, I just wrote that song. I think we were in Texas, and we stayed dup all night recording that song. I like the energy of that track, and I like how it feels. It feels like it keeps coming back around, and I wanted to write a rhyme style that fit it. I didn’t want it to be real abstract. I wanted to keep it as something that I felt people could relate to.

“Never Been In Love”
Kweli: That’s another one that happened after the original album got downloaded. I went to producers like Just Blaze, The Neptunes, and Organized Noise. I actually did a song with Organized Noise, but it didn’t make the album. I’ll probably B-Side it. Anyway, Just Blaze played me a bunch of tracks one day, when I was hanging out with him and Saigon. He played that track, and I was like, “That’s hot.” It didn’t blow me away at first, but I liked it. He was like, “I already played that track for 50 Cent, and he really liked that track, too.” Then, we decided to do something with it. I wrote that song over the course of two days, just sitting around in the studio. There’s actually a tribute to Hi-Tek at the end of it, by Just Blaze. Just had said that “2,000 Seasons” was the first track he had from me. He’s a real big fan of Hi-Tek. So, that was like a little inside tribute that he did.

     While Nelly has never been the game’s tightest lyricist, enjoying one of his records is best suited for a club atmosphere, and that’s where Sweat should have guaranteed positive reaction. Unfortunately, this is not the case by any means. Over its thirteen track length, Sweat follows every cliche and stereotype that Nelly has helped solidify.

     Opening with slight promise in the form of the energized sampling of the NBA theme music on “Heart Of A Champion,” things slowly drift into mediocrity. Save for Jazze Pha’s hypnotic bells on “Na-Nana-Na” and The Neptunes’ undeniably addictive percussion on “Flap Your Wings,” Sweat falters with the dreaded combination of bland production and hollow lyricism. The obvious attempt at hardening the mood by use of dark piano notes on “Spida Man” comes off laughable, while the usually reliable Alchemist contributes a clear throw-away instrumental for Mobb Deep to abandon their recent grimy resurgence alongside Nelly and Missy on the suspect “Playa.” The worst offender on Sweat easily comes in the form of “Tilt Ya Head Back,” the painful duet with Christina Aguilera that abuses a Curtis Mayfield sample while laying further claim into the argument that Nelly is more hip-pop than hip-hop.

    On the Suit disc, things thankfully take a welcome turn for the better. Nelly is much easier on the ears when embracing his soulful side, rather than exploiting his lack of rhyme skills. “Play It Off” smoothes the tempo out with assisted crooning from Pharrell Williams, while Jahiem delivers a perfect hook to the romantic “My Place.” Despite a poor showing by Mase, “In My Life” gets the thumbs up courtesy of its playfully upbeat backdrop. On the introspective “Nobody Knows,” Nelly brings listeners closer into his life with heartfelt nostalgia and an engaging chorus serviced by the impeccable voice of Anthony Hamilton. Not all is well on Suit, however, as both “N Dey Say” and the much-hyped Tim McGraw collabo “Over and Over” miss their intended targets.

     With Nelly, what you see is what you get. His music has never been celebrated for its artistic merit or creative edge; his platinum plaques and superstar stature have come through the support of those leaning more towards J-Kwon than say, Raekwon. Favoring quantity over quality, Sweat/Suit gives the world exactly what was expected, the St. Lunatic’s latest exercise in flash and presentation devoid of layered substance.

     While Nelly has never been the game’s tightest lyricist, enjoying one of his records is best suited for a club atmosphere, and that’s where Sweat should have guaranteed positive reaction. Unfortunately, this is not the case by any means. Over its thirteen track length, Sweat follows every cliche and stereotype that Nelly has helped solidify.

     Opening with slight promise in the form of the energized sampling of the NBA theme music on “Heart Of A Champion,” things slowly drift into mediocrity. Save for Jazze Pha’s hypnotic bells on “Na-Nana-Na” and The Neptunes’ undeniably addictive percussion on “Flap Your Wings,” Sweat falters with the dreaded combination of bland production and hollow lyricism. The obvious attempt at hardening the mood by use of dark piano notes on “Spida Man” comes off laughable, while the usually reliable Alchemist contributes a clear throw-away instrumental for Mobb Deep to abandon their recent grimy resurgence alongside Nelly and Missy on the suspect “Playa.” The worst offender on Sweat easily comes in the form of “Tilt Ya Head Back,” the painful duet with Christina Aguilera that abuses a Curtis Mayfield sample while laying further claim into the argument that Nelly is more hip-pop than hip-hop.

    On the Suit disc, things thankfully take a welcome turn for the better. Nelly is much easier on the ears when embracing his soulful side, rather than exploiting his lack of rhyme skills. “Play It Off” smoothes the tempo out with assisted crooning from Pharrell Williams, while Jahiem delivers a perfect hook to the romantic “My Place.” Despite a poor showing by Mase, “In My Life” gets the thumbs up courtesy of its playfully upbeat backdrop. On the introspective “Nobody Knows,” Nelly brings listeners closer into his life with heartfelt nostalgia and an engaging chorus serviced by the impeccable voice of Anthony Hamilton. Not all is well on Suit, however, as both “N Dey Say” and the much-hyped Tim McGraw collabo “Over and Over” miss their intended targets.

     With Nelly, what you see is what you get. His music has never been celebrated for its artistic merit or creative edge; his platinum plaques and superstar stature have come through the support of those leaning more towards J-Kwon than say, Raekwon. Favoring quantity over quality, Sweat/Suit gives the world exactly what was expected, the St. Lunatic’s latest exercise in flash and presentation devoid of layered substance.

       In a perfect hip-hop world, a solo Jim Jones album would be unnecessary, but in these days and times, it is inevitable. Having rode shotgun with Cam since the Confessions of Fire days, Jones is a rapper who admits to penning his first raps a mere two years ago. This point is one that can’t be avoided on On My Way To Church, a collection of hit-or-miss production occasionally heightened by entertaining commentary.

     “We set them precedents, to get them presidents/ Over the ones that’s dead, we put guns to your head,” warns Jim Jones on “Only One Way Up,” a threat that mirrors the creative levels at work here. No ground is broken, and no chances are really taken as Jones covers the expected topics of drug dealing, gunplay, and the frequent sex episodes. When he strays away from these generic issues, however, Jones proves to be quite able. On “Lonely Daze/Memory Lane,” he is able shine with honest narratives, while on “Talking To The World” he weaves a positive message within his gritty street fare. Moments like these are too few and far between, though, as the majority of On My Way To Church plods along with lackluster offerings. The breezy vibe of “Spanish Fly” is wasted with painfully weak verses, and the overly violent “Shotgun Fire” comes off more yawn-worthy than intimidating. 

    Jim Jones isn’t the most lyrically gifted rhyme-spitter, making the brightest moments heard on On My Way To Church appear when he invites his friends to bless pounding instrumentals. “End Of The Road” sports a damaging blend of organ keys and sprinkled vocal samples courtesy of Heatmakerz, ignited by guests T.I. and Bun.B. Jones sounds most comfortable alongside his Diplomat brethren, though, as Jones, Cam’ron and Juelz run triz over three separate tracks. Thunderous electric guitars power the trio on the aforementioned “Only One Way Up,” an off-kilter reggae voice-over guides them on “Jamaican Joint,” and deeply devastating bass thugs them out on the rowdy “Crunk Muzik.” 

     For every banger like the Eazy-E-influenced “Certified Gangstas” found on On My Way To Church, there’s an undeniably wack track like the laughable “Bend N Stretch,” ultimately making the album a forgettable one. It should please the Diplomats’ built-in fan base, but those searching for something more in their music need to steer clear away from this disc. 

      Main Flow sports a smooth delivery that never flies over listeners’ ears, aided by a seemingly effortless knack for riding any beat perfectly. “The Wire” finds him reporting on his urban reality, flowing over steady guitar plucks with observations like, “You got kingpins out there, slanging them bricks/ You got pimp type cats steady bringing them tricks/ Everybody in between probably hangin’ in slick/ Watch the color that you wearin’ cuz the bangin’ is sick.” The spacey vocal samples supplied by Da Riffs on “Such A Fool” are serviced correctly by Flow, while Talib Kweli joins forces with Flow on the abrasive “Hip Hop Worth Dying For,” calling out those who mistreat the culture over an operatic atmosphere. 

     When attacking more conceptual fare, Main Flow is able to bring the goods. “She Likes Me” is a radio-friendly jam where he and guest eLone question a potential wifey’s motives for affection on top of elegant piano keys courtesy of Nace. On “Dice Role,” a rugged beat plays the back as Flow details the negative effects caused by a simple role of the popular game pieces.

     Hip-Hopulation features no truly weak selections, but is held back by an overabundance of guest appearances. The end product feels more like a compilation hosted by Main Flow, rather than a real solo project. At times, inviting his associates to add to the population is welcome. Black Thought and Donte ignite the live-band feel of “Classic,” and Planet Asia sounds right at home over Reason’s bouncy arrangement on “Loving The Game.” 

      At other times, though, fans will be left wishing Flow showed and proved more by himself.  The off-kilter accordion used on “Worldwide” needs repair as P. Killer and Defari do little to advance it. Killah Priest and Masta Foul make unnecessary turns on the sappy “Never Imagined,” a cut wasting three talented MCs by covering familiar romantic topics and using a yawn-inducing beat by Da Riffs. With Esoteric, Mikah 9, Mystro, GLK, and Soulstice rounding out the guest list, Hip-Hopulation is a bit overcrowded for both the listener’s and Main Flow’s own good.

     Putting aside his reliance on features, Main Flow deserves to be heard, and Hip-Hopulation is a solid release that holds up nicely with the current crop of underground essentials. Straying away from gimmicks, Flow crafts an album that should satisfy any rap fan craving some pure music in their life.

With those words delivered on the classic Nas debut LP Illmatic, AZ was immortalized within the history books of hip-hop music. As the only guest to appear on that seminal record, Brooklyn native AZ began a career that has spanned over a decade, bringing in high amounts of acclaim and respect amongst his lyrical peers. From his slept-on 1995 debut Doe Or Die to 2002′s critically appraised Aziatic, AZ has consistently blessed listeners with his crisp flow punctuated by street narratives and charismatic verses. Despite the steady praise he has warranted, though, his name is rarely mentioned alongside those of MCs with as much, or even less, microphone experience, and many outside of hip-hop’s faithful box still aren’t aware of his achievements.

Final Call, his fifth album, is set to hit the streets hard in September, and promises to provide fans with new insights from AZ’s ‘New York state of mind’. The once-member of super-group The Firm has called upon guests CL Smooth, Tony Sunshine, Rell, and even the late Aaliyah to bring the heat, and with beat-makers such as Buckwild and Baby Paul on board, Final Call appears to be a sure-fire winner. Whether or not this new album will help AZ reach the star status which has strayed away from him thus far is in time’s hands, but one thing is for sure: those in the know are definitely anticipating Final Call and will help it to make as much noise as possible. If this album fails to take his career to new heights, though, AZ has his business mind focused, prepping his Quiet Money Records with hungry, Brooklyn-bred talent, and single-handedly planning the long-awaited, often fantasized about, Nas and AZ collaboration album.

HHS: First off, let’s talk about the new album, Final Call, that’s coming out this September. What can listeners expect from this record?

AZ: People can expect AZ to the tenth power. I’m back, and I’m bigger and better, as usual. This album is like a combination of Doe Or Die, Pieces Of A Man, 9 Lives, and Aziatic.

HHS: Why did you name it Final Call?

AZ: Final Call is like saying that this the last time I’m telling y’all to recognize who I am and what I’m bringing to the table. It’s my final call.

HHS: So what happens if people don’t recognize after this album?

AZ: Well, then I’m going to fall back. I got a whole crew. I got Quiet Money Records right now, with three or four artists that are ready to do what they gotta do. I’m gonna play CEO.

HHS: Break down this Quiet Money family for everybody who isn’t aware.

AZ: Well, I got my man Young God. He was on the 9 Lives album, and he’s on this new album actually. I got my man Animal; he’s been on the last two albums. On Aziatic, he was on that “Hustler” joint. Then you got my man Trav. I got a whole crew in Brooklyn waiting.

HHS: How did the track “Magic Hour” with CL Smooth come about?

AZ: Well, you know, me, Pete Rock, and CL go way back. Back to the early Nas days, and my first days, when we worked on the Doe Or Die album. CL is cool with me, and he stopped through the studio, to pay respects or whatever. He heard the track, and was like, “Wow, this is hot!” I asked him to see what he could do with it, so he hopped on it right there and it came out crazy. That’s why it’s called “Magic Hour”, cuz we just did it there right on the spot.

HHS: This album also has vocals from Aaliyah on it. How did you get those vocals?

AZ: Those vocals there, they are off her first album. I don’t want people thinking they are exclusive vocals. It was chopped up, and the record is a beautiful record. Her vocals were so soulful to me. They made me express what I wouldn’t express on any other track.

HHS: You’ve always given new producers a lot of shine on your albums, rather than recruit big name people. What do you think the advantage is in working with fresh talent?

AZ: Because the big names guys aren’t necessarily gonna come through. The guys that’s trying to come up are gonna go hard and remember who brought them to the table.

HHS: You actually did some production yourself on this album. Is this the first time that you have produced any tracks?

AZ: Yeah, I did like three tracks on the album. It was the first time, and with me being an artist, I know what I want to rap on. I learned how to do it by being around people and having people assist me.

HHS: You touched on this briefly already, but do you think that you have been given the recognition that you deserve after ten years in the game?

AZ: Not necessarily. I know I’m respected in the game, and respected by those that know me, but its time to reach everybody, you know, reach the world. The ghettos and the hoods love me and show the respect, but its time for me to step it up, man. I’m gonna do it, somehow and some way. Either if it’s through the record label, or through the archives that I have.

HHS: The last album, Aziatic, received a lot of critical acclaim when it dropped. Do you feel that Final Call is an improvement from that album?

AZ: Yeah, no doubt, Final Call, to me, is my best album, because it has everything. I brought the streets to it, and I kept it with a soulful vibe. The lyrics stepped up and the music stepped up. It’s constant elevation.

HHS: What’s up with the song you have out now with Tony Sunshine, “Talkin’ Gangsta”?

AZ: We just put that out, with me just rambling. It has this Calypso, Spanish feel to it, but still the street aura is involved. Tony Sunshine definitely blessed that, but that’s not gonna be the first single. We just got that out there circulating. The first single is “You Know”, with Rell. We are shooting that video real soon, and we’ll start smashing the radios with it.

HHS: How are your relationships with your former Firm associates, like Nas, Cormega, and Foxy Brown?

AZ: Everybody is cool. They are all doing them. Foxy Brown is no longer with Def Jam, and she is trying to sign elsewhere. Nas, you know, is doing the Ill Will thing. He’s trying to drop this new double CD. Hopefully I’m on that album, cuz we did a song for that double CD. If the song didn’t make it, though, I’m trying to reach out to him and let him know that we should get this album done. A Nas and AZ album together. I’m trying to work that out, reach out to everybody and let them know. So many people have been asking for it, and I don’t want them to think that I’m the cause of it not happening. Everytime I do an interview, I tell the person to make it clear that I’m trying to let Nas and whoever know that we need to get that poppin’ off.

HHS: How was it working with Cormega on his new Legal Hustle album?

AZ: Mega is peoples. He’s been grinding, you know trying to stay on top of his job. I definitely appreciate and respect that. So it was all love.

HHS: In what ways do you think this rap game is different now in 2004 then it was when you dropped Doe Or Die back in 1995?

AZ: In 1995, the era was over here in the East Coast. We had it locked for a minute, and then the West Coast ran with it. Now, the Midwest and the South are getting it crunk, so it’s their time to run with it. They’re eating right now, and they have this game locked. In a minute, though, I’m sure it will come back to the East Coast.

HHS: In 1995, you were one of the new MCs creating heavy buzz. What do you think of this large crop of new rappers creating buzz through all of these mixtapes out now?

AZ: The new cats are aight. They do what they do. I haven’t really heard anybody that caught my ear or had me go crazy, like back then when everybody was coming through.

HHS: Looking back on your career so far, is there anything that you would have done differently?

AZ: No, not necessarily. I like being in the spot that I’m in. It’s a tough job, but somebody’s got to do it.

HHS: So when all is said and done, in like ten years from now, what do you want a rap fan to think of when someone mentions the name AZ?

AZ: That A-1 is the livest. He’s underrated, but one of the livest. That’s in every story, from basketball to baseball. There is always somebody that is underrated but definitely the one that opened the doors for a lot of people, cuz like I said and told a lot of people, “Sugar Hill” went platinum way before a lot of guys went platinum.